Here’s part two of our conversation with Bob Carlson about his uncompromising approach to KCRW’s UnFictional.
Have you ever asked a producer to tone down a piece before it could air?
Not “tone down” in the sense that I think a story is too “weird.” But there may be a point during the editing process, that we have to work to make sure that anything we do is in the service of telling a compelling story. That often means making sure that a story has heart, stakes and a universal truth. I don’t like stories that are mean or condescending, where the humor of the story comes from simply laughing at someone.
Also, anytime you’re trying to be unusual and inventive, there’s always a danger that you can veer into self indulgence and being “unusual” for it’s own sake. But that’s all part of the editing process, working with the structure and the elements of a story to make it great, sometimes experimenting, sometimes pulling back.
Do you give priority to work that you can debut, that's never aired?
Yes, because part of the mandate of my show is to enable new work and to provide a structure and resources for producers to turn an idea into a great radio piece. That said, there’s a lot of material out there that has been produced for podcasts or local shows that deserves another outlet, so I welcome those stories. I also broadcast a fair amount of exceptional international work that American listeners may not know about. However, If a story has already aired on a big national show, I figure that a major chunk of the audience has already heard it. In the early days of my program I did air some nationally broadcast stories, but I do that a lot less now unless it’s a collaboration with that show.
Rather than one big tough decision, I make a lot of little tough decisions all the time. Even though I shoot for high quality production values on UnFictional, I’m operating with a microscopic staff (me and a part time editor.) So I often need to make tough decisions in order to keep things efficient and make deadlines.
What’s the toughest decision about the show that you ever had to make?
Sometimes, however, it’s worth taking our time. When Anayansi Diaz-Cortes was working on her “Ghosts of Srebrenica” piece, we arrived at the broadcast deadline with the piece in decent but not ideal condition. I decided that since it was an important story, we needed to hold it back another week so that we could finish the story with the attention it needed, and I had to air a repeat that week. The story really benefitted from the extra time and ended up as one of the most beautiful and haunting pieces we’ve aired.
Talk about your recent collaborations between the show and outside producers. For example, the ear-catching piece about former major league pitcher Dock Ellis.
The Dock Ellis episode is one of my favorites, and was a true collaborative effort. I had been aware of this fantastic animated YouTube video that tells the story of the 70s baseball pitcher Dock Ellis pitching a no-hitter while high on LSD. The basis of that video was an old public radio piece, and for several months I had been in contact with Donnell Alexander, one of the producers of that original radio story. Eventually Donnell came up with the idea of using more material from his original interview with Dock Ellis to make a new radio piece. I immediately thought to make it a companion and expansion of the original story.
The next step was to bring in Neille Illel who was the other producer on the original. (She actually came out of public radio retirement, she had moved on to a different line of work.) So Donnell became one of the main voices of the piece, and Neille conducted new interviews and edited them into the core elements of the episode. I knitted the whole thing together with new narration and excerpts from Dock Ellis’ biography.
The tone of that episode represents exactly what I’m trying to do with my show. In the beginning of the episode you’re introduced to the larger-than-life character of Dock Ellis, known mainly for his outlandish personality and being the subject of some really wild and hilarious stories. But then, over the course of the episode, we peel away layers of this complex guy, and the ending is quite emotional and heartfelt.
What’s the range of dollars you pay producers [as much as you can talk about it]? And if the payout has increased or decreased over the life of the show?
The pay rate is comparable to similar national programs, but quite good when you consider that UnFictional is primarily a local show. There’s a set rate, but it goes up a little or a lot based on the experience of the producer and the complexity of the story. The pay range has changed since the show started, in that it’s more consistent now.
Is the Strangers podcast a spin-off from Unfictional?
No, not exactly. Strangers was the second program produced under KCRW’s Independent Producer Project banner. Lea Thau, the producer of the Strangers podcast, had been one of the producers of The Moth in New York. She wanted to learn to do a studio-produced story program based on the theme of ‘Strangers,’ and our station manager hired her to do that as a podcast for KCRW.
Does the Independent Producers Project plan to launch other original podcasts? If so, are you open to pitches from producers with fresh podcast concepts?
Yes the IPP is definitely open to hearing new ideas for podcasts and radio ideas. KCRW has intentionally left the idea of the Independent Producer Project wide open. The original idea was to have it be a clearinghouse of creativity of all types, audio, video, photography, etc. If KCRW finds that a project has a good and viable concept, they’ll find a way to fund it and do it.
What’s your opinion on the state of creative storytelling audio after two years of producing and curating Unfictional?
I’m amazed at the breadth and quality of radio storytelling that’s going on. It really feels different and smarter and deeper than any other media you could find. It’s incredibly inspiring to meet the growing community of producers with a passion and talent to create really cool and unusual stuff. It seems that the only thing standing in our way is finding money to do it. I’m only one show, but I get a great deal of satisfaction from making it possible for talented people to do a memorable audio story and get paid for it.
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